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Terran Connections to the Roman Empire
marty123
Member Posts: 674 Arc User
in Ten Forward
I recently noticed that it was tradition in the Roman Empire to pass down power to an adopted child. It reminded me of Mirror Georgiou and Mirror Burnham.
It’s obvious that the Terran Empire sees themselves as the “Third Rome”, they are definitely not THE Roman Empire but seem to be heavily inspired by it.
It’s obvious that the Terran Empire sees themselves as the “Third Rome”, they are definitely not THE Roman Empire but seem to be heavily inspired by it.
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"I was merely researching classical literature. I wanted to compare our major works with their counterparts in the other universe. I skimmed a few of the more celebrated narratives. The stories were similar in some respects, but their characters were weak and compassionate. With the exception of Shakespeare, of course. From what I could tell, his plays were equally grim in both universes."
The Terran Empire could have had a slightly darker history than our own or it could have blackwashed classical literature so that the literature would support the twisted ideals of the Terran Empire. So the origins of the Terran Empire could have been created in World War III with Colonel Green that want to euthanize hundreds of thousands of people suffering from radiation sickness to prevent future generations from suffering from diseases created by radiation. So if Green won, then the Prime Universe could have had a Terran Empire instead of a Federation. Making the Terran Empire's history similar to our own is what makes the Terrans so terrifying. Our future could be the Terran Empire.
In Discovery, Empress Georgiou states that "The Federation. I know it well from the Defiant's files. There's a reason they're classified. Equality. Freedom. Co-operation. Cornerstones for successful cultures. Delusions that Terrans shed millennia ago. Destructive ideals that fuel rebellions and I will not let you infect us again." If the Mirror Universe's Earth shed the 'delusions' of equality, freedom, and co-operation, then their history is vastly different from our own. The Mirror Universe would have never had a country like the United States of America which was founded on the ideals of equality and freedom. This just makes the Terrans into another generic Star Trek villain. There is no need to worry about us becoming the Terran Empire since we have nothing in common.
> It is possible that the Mirror Universe in Discovery was descended from the Roman Empire, but it is less clear with the Mirror Universe in other Star Trek series. In the Enterprise episodes, In a Mirror Darkly, had Cochrane kill the Vulcan crew from First Contact and steal their technology and the Mirror Universe's classical literature was darker with Shakespeare not being changed at all.
>
> "I was merely researching classical literature. I wanted to compare our major works with their counterparts in the other universe. I skimmed a few of the more celebrated narratives. The stories were similar in some respects, but their characters were weak and compassionate. With the exception of Shakespeare, of course. From what I could tell, his plays were equally grim in both universes."
>
> The Terran Empire could have had a slightly darker history than our own or it could have blackwashed classical literature so that the literature would support the twisted ideals of the Terran Empire. So the origins of the Terran Empire could have been created in World War III with Colonel Green that want to euthanize hundreds of thousands of people suffering from radiation sickness to prevent future generations from suffering from diseases created by radiation. So if Green won, then the Prime Universe could have had a Terran Empire instead of a Federation. Making the Terran Empire's history similar to our own is what makes the Terrans so terrifying. Our future could be the Terran Empire.
>
> In Discovery, Empress Georgiou states that "The Federation. I know it well from the Defiant's files. There's a reason they're classified. Equality. Freedom. Co-operation. Cornerstones for successful cultures. Delusions that Terrans shed millennia ago. Destructive ideals that fuel rebellions and I will not let you infect us again." If the Mirror Universe's Earth shed the 'delusions' of equality, freedom, and co-operation, then their history is vastly different from our own. The Mirror Universe would have never had a country like the United States of America which was founded on the ideals of equality and freedom. This just makes the Terrans into another generic Star Trek villain. There is no need to worry about us becoming the Terran Empire since we have nothing in common.
Other than the fact we already are
It's the same Mirror Universe in ENT, TOS, DS9, and DSC.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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normal text = me speaking as fellow formite
colored text = mod mode
It is not a matter of how long the Terran Empire has existed, but if and when their history diverged from ours. Mirror Phlox mentioned that there was some differences between their classical literature and our classical literature, but Empress Georgiou mentioned that they have violently suppressed any rebellion that supported freedom and equality for thousands of years.
For all we know, Cochrane could have been the first emperor of the Terran Empire with his captured Vulcan ship since he shot the Vulcan Captain and a highly advanced Vulcan ship would have been able to take over Earth with little effort.
One can suppose that his has happened many times. A woman marries a different guy, a man gets killed before siring a Prime Universe Favorite Son. Nero forgives the transgressions of his universe's overly excitable Hakeev and never hunts down Spock.
There is no way the MU stays a Mirror of the Prime for any duration. Pick your timespan: divergences will happen, and add to one another until the universes no longer even attempt to mirror one another. There should not be two Spocks, because the events which created one were of necessity different for the other!
The only way the MU works is via writer fiat. They say there are two Burnhams, two Kirks, two Cochranes, exactly alike, but different. Without some outside force constantly re-aligning them, the universes would have diverged in only a generation to be vastly different, with different people, different events, and different everything.
Headcanon it any way you like, but there is no logical way that the Mirror Universe stays a mirror more than a few moments beyond its divergence from the prime universe, because across any universe, every second, trillions upon quadrillions of random events occur which have as good a chance to go one way as the other. The differences add up too fast to count/
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
Having the world copied every year or two would have them diverge over the years. The TV series, Counterpart, is a good example of this. It has a scientific experiment in 1986 that created a copy of the world with each Earth diverging widely where one character is a bureaucrat and the other world has him as a spy. Although, it is possible that both worlds always existed, but the interaction between the two worlds caused them to diverge.
As for the Terrans, personally I think the Roman Empire died out like in our universe but as time progressed the ideals that helped shape the free world didn't exist, for example the Magna Carta, the United States Constitution, the UN Charter etc. The Cold War also never really spawned thus the Terrans remind me of the Soviet Empire based on what I have seen. Freedom won in the Cold War, in Mirror Universe, the Soviets came out on top.
> The Romulans I would argue hold the the title of "Roman Empire" in Star Trek. Romulus & Remus their two worlds are the founders of Rome in the Empire's Lore. The Proconsul is also is a Romulan imperial title also given the leader of the Roman Republic. Just like the Romans, the Romulans use raptors as their primary symbol. The Senate is also the legislative body of both Empires. Warrior "slaves" aka the Remans were also common in Rome.
>
> As for the Terrans, personally I think the Roman Empire died out like in our universe but as time progressed the ideals that helped shape the free world didn't exist, for example the Magna Carta, the United States Constitution, the UN Charter etc. The Cold War also never really spawned thus the Terrans remind me of the Soviet Empire based on what I have seen. Freedom won in the Cold War, in Mirror Universe, the Soviets came out on top.
My opinion is the Magna Carter never happened, there is no point of divergence but it seems likely that the British spread fascism throughout the world in the Mirror Universe just like they spread democracy throughout the world in the Prime Universe.
Also the Romulan Star Empire has a Proconsul as well as a Praetor suggesting they are a Constitutional Monarchy rather than a full on Empire.
See, this is my point: there are far too many points of divergence for the two universes to remain mirrors.
Why wasn't the Magna Charta signed? Why because John Lackland wasn't a douchebag. He never usurped his brother's throne and inspired Robin Hood legends, he paid King Richard's ransom and got him back from the crusades alive and healthy, and Richard went on to become a successful king and father, and thus half of France remained under the control of the Normans because unlike John, Richard was an effective military officer, which means that there was never a Sun King in France, and the 16th one didn't lose his head, so there was never a Napoleon, a Louisiana Purchase, or an invasion of Russia by the Grand Armee...
One little change, even a seemingly insignificant one, is too many because suddenly you have a point of divergence and soon the mirror isn't a mirror any more.
The only explanation for the MU is writer fiat. The MU is whatever the writers need it to be at the time based on WeSaySo, not logic. There is no logical path from any past Earth to the current MU. The math don't add up.
To keep STO away from messing with the canon of the future Star Trek shows and movies like the new Picard series, then there must be at least Mirror universe and Mirror-STO Universe. The same could be said for the Kelvin Timeline and the Kelvin-STO Universe. The Terminal Expanse mission says that a rift was created between the STO Universe and the universe that created the Kelvin Timeline which is against the branching timeline concept that the creators of Star Trek 2009 support.
So STO's Spock and Nero traveled to another universe and Star Trek 2009's Nero traveled from 2387 to 2233 and created a new timeline when he destroyed the USS Kelvin. Star Trek 2009 makes the whole purpose of a Temporal Integrity Commission extremely useless if a new timeline is created every time a major temporal event happens. Why bother going back in time to fix the past when the hero's reality is perfectly fine? All they have to do is adjust to the new reality that they find themselves in.
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Makes sense. Which is why I prefer the idea that an infinite number of parallel universes were created at the Big Bang rather than major temporal changes always creates a new universe. It makes far more sense that changing the past changes the present to keep drama in a time travel movie or use the form of time travel in Michael Crichton's Timeline novel. The Timeline novel has the protagonists travel to a parallel universe that looked like the 14th Century so any time travel paradoxes wouldn't exist. Any changes made in the 14th Century would not affect the 21st Century.
> True, but the specific legends which name him as King during Robin's days in Sherwood pretty much require King John to be the incompetent dummy he was.
He was so bad there’s never been a King John II and John is now the ultimate common name in England.
- Nobles would still revolt against the king until he was overthrown
- People would still be taxed without being represented
- People would be accused of crimes commited without being tried by a jury
- Parliment would not have been created
- Democracy wouldn't of formed
- Common laws would no exist
- Church and state would not be separated
This sounds like the Terran Empire to me
Or there would have been another Magna Carta except a few hundred years later. There is always the drive for a person to free themselves from the current tyranny. Although, it usually amounts to the King's reign of tyranny has ended and now my reign of tyranny will begin.
The Magna Charta's benefits were all exclusively for the barons, not the common folk. Too much is made of it as a great liberating document, but while it restrained the power of the monarch, it did nothing to curtail the power of the barons. This would have to wait a couple of hundred years for the Black Death to decimate the population of England, (and Europe,) making skilled tradesmen, (farmers were skilled tradesmen back then,) valuable enough that when they demanded more rights and power over their lives, the nobility couldn't just kill off the troublemakers.
Ironically, the rise of the common man of England coincided with the massive reduction in power of the nobility due to the civil wars of the 1400s. As the Tudors gathered ever more power to the throne, the nobles lost it and by contrast the commoners grew more proportionally powerful, even though they didn't actually gain any new freedoms. It just brought the nobility down.
So, in the same vein as the argument for the Roman influence, one could suppose a major Tudor influence in the origins of the Terran Empire. Henry VIII would make a good model for a Terran Emperor, assuming his Empire Upon Which The Sun Never Sets engulfs the world over the 200 years following his reign.
And now I have an idea for hw the Terran Empire was founded:
> And according to Patrick Stewart he's the reason all toilets are called Johns. #startrek connexion!
>
> The Magna Charta's benefits were all exclusively for the barons, not the common folk. Too much is made of it as a great liberating document, but while it restrained the power of the monarch, it did nothing to curtail the power of the barons. This would have to wait a couple of hundred years for the Black Death to decimate the population of England, (and Europe,) making skilled tradesmen, (farmers were skilled tradesmen back then,) valuable enough that when they demanded more rights and power over their lives, the nobility couldn't just kill off the troublemakers.
>
> Ironically, the rise of the common man of England coincided with the massive reduction in power of the nobility due to the civil wars of the 1400s. As the Tudors gathered ever more power to the throne, the nobles lost it and by contrast the commoners grew more proportionally powerful, even though they didn't actually gain any new freedoms. It just brought the nobility down.
>
> So, in the same vein as the argument for the Roman influence, one could suppose a major Tudor influence in the origins of the Terran Empire. Henry VIII would make a good model for a Terran Emperor, assuming his Empire Upon Which The Sun Never Sets engulfs the world over the 200 years following his reign.
>
>
> And now I have an idea for hw the Terran Empire was founded: (Spoiler)
Rule Britannia! Long live the Empire!